Palidin is missing something in PVP

Hi there,

I wanted to give a bit of feedback on Paladin in pvp specifically. It feels as though it is missing something. Especially the 2-handed hammer paladin, which I will be referring to as “hammer pally”.

My accolades and why u should bother reading this. I have 300 hours only in paladin i am level 70 something, gotten every paladin Lego, and done extensive testing. I have also done 1000+ hours DMing battle scenarios and balancing pvp changes in DND. I love talking about balance changes and picturing how that will change the meta.

Why Paladin sucks vs ranged. Especially a hunter.

The answer you will find with a lot of this is purely action economy and action quality. Lets look at the class that is most like Paladin. Warrior.

Warrior has 3 things Paladin does not have and we SUFFER because of it. The first, most obvious, is our jump attack on any weapon does not have blue (unstoppable). Considering this is a very important gap closing tool it is not a fun experience being shot out of the sky just trying to close the distance especially when we are slowed and cant get a sprint attack off. Hunters are amazing at this but we will get to why in a bit.

2: We have no gab closing ability that makes us blue, let alone gives us enrage (IE Immunity to stagger, slow, and roots). The warriors' charge ability can be used with zero stamina and is a great getaway or a tool to continue the pressure. If a wizard or ranger is a little far away from us, we are kind of cooked if we run out of stamina. If i jump attack i might get shot out of the air.

Warrior are not as long as they can charge or use a grappling hook. Also charge gives the warrior a way out of the vortex. Paladin has NO answer to vortex other then sprinting or rolling multiple times. Grappling hook is on paper, a ranged stun. We have nothing that is reliable.


3: I swear we are the only class with no stun and silence effect. Blah blah lightning spear stuns at range if you are high justice but that’s just it HIGH JUSTICE is hard to maintain and harder to get. Warrior literally has multiple with the grapple chain, glove, head but, Whirlwind interrupting things. You essentially have to have had the shit kicked out of you before u can get to high justice. For something so hard to get it should stick around for a little bit longer then it does. Also the spear stun is something you will NEVER be able to capitizle on with your main arenal (weapon attacks) because they are far away. It's so much fun not being able to actually attack someone after going through so much effort to stun them. Imagine if warriors chain flung people away after stunning them. Why ?

4: I added a fourth to really push the idea home of what we are missing. A easy-to-obtain resource. I have almost lost all of my pips in pvp in full legendries just getting to 70% justice and its start to disappear real quick in sword and shield. My only real option is to always land my hammers, which are the SLOWEST MOVING MAIN PROJECTILE OF ANY CLASS IN THE GAME, and a person who knows a tiny bit Paladin should avoid them like the plague. Picture it, the only thing that’s even close is priest sphere and that auto tracks people or they have direct control over it and can chose when it detonates. My other option is to take damage, which I hear is an amazing way to win a fight.

I compare justice to a hunter's swiftness. It's about the same time to full hitting a dummy and drains at about the same rate. But they get the benefit that their normal ranged attacks get it for them and it increases their attack speed aka making it easiar for them to get more. Justice does NOT have that benefit and is mostly gained through shield hits (aka your opponent not knowing how paladin works and just shooting you) or taking damage. With 2 hander hammer, you get it from hitting people. Now if you are getting kited into the dirt and you could really use that extra justice damage you are out of luck.

No other class in the game has a harder time getting their resource in pvp and maintaining it. The worst part is it's not even that much of a benefit. Warrior has horns on use to bump it up. Spear gives them rage etc etc.



5: Action economy. The warriors enrage ability can be cast with NO animation mid-swing. On the other hand, my seals have a cast time AND break sprint for sprint attacks. Not to mention that the sword and shield Q draws weapon also breaking sprint stride. When im on my 2 hander hammer as a pally vs a warrior and I punish them and time a massive Held right attack (red hammer slam). I don’t get to splat them as they can press their enrage button even if they don’t have stamina to not only not get flinched, not get splattered but even get a shield to mitigate some of the damge during their own attack.

Think about it for 2 seconds, how many cooldowns, I have to pop (if i even could which i cant at the same time to get a portion of the effect of warriors enrage. Its red seal + blue seals Q + A better version of crusader seal as theirs gives root immunites. Even if I could cast those 3 seals it would take like what 1-2 seconds worth of animation? Theirs has no cast time and no cast animation and can be done mid stagger /mid their swing for christ sake.

This staggered approach to cool downs fucking cripple us against hunters.

This is what happens if im vsing a hunter

Hunter places 2-3 traps, Hunter shoots poison arrow into the ground between me and their traps, Hunter ice arrows me as this does not share a cooldown with poison, throws poison grenade, Hunter shoots me i get staggered, I am now slowed and staggered.

Now his the “fun part”. Has anyone done the math on how long you are held up if you walk into a bear trap as a pally?

You have 3 options, and they all suck.

Option 1: Pop crusade seal to be immune to slows > walk into trap trying to get to hunter > Hold up shield pray that ranger doesn’t throw poision grenade> if they smart they just wait out the trap and shoot at the very end while back peddling and shooting another poison arrow between u and them.

Option 2: Use no seal to prevent the initial slows and staggers if they hit you > walk in to trap > get staggered > cast Crusader Seal, which is like being staggered a second time due to cast animation > run out of trap. Ideally, for this i want to be in white helmet so that way I can have the red seal and crusader seal effects.

Option 3 > walk into trap > Sit it out with shield while getting shot and poisoned. O wait i run  a 2 hander hammer so i guess im just fucked.

ALL OF THIS IS FOR ONE SINGULAR TRAP. We don’t have root immunity only removal on use of the seal. What about the next one when my seal is on cooldown : ). Keep in mind they have 3 traps or the next posion grenade or the next slowing arrow, whether its ice or posion? Also, all traps,  grenades , shots, and special arrows stagger you if the bow is medium and up.  I infinity prefer fighting a frost mage which is the next worse match up because at least im not slowed and staggered for 5 years and they have to actually directly hit me for something to go off.

What does a warrior do to a trap? Charge > get enrage from equipment base walk through as many traps as they want and no stagger.

The hunter has the ability to get massively in front on resources against pally as they can place traps and any time spent by the pally not pressuring the ranger means they are getting even more mana for more grenades and bird calls and you guessed it TRAPS.

Obviously, during this you can return fire but at this point, the hunter has used zero evades and will have an evade for every one of your actions.

Now lets talk balancing.

What really concerns me with 2 hander paladin is that it can absolutely destroy people if they are caught. For example, if I am with a warrior  then pulls someone or a wizard who vortex or a priest who stuns a warrior out of enrage, and I’m close to capitalize on this they are going to die.

I had a fight today against an experienced high skill warrior. Normally, he can sit through my hammer damage but the moment he got stunned by my priest he died in like 8 seconds to me with the hammer and the priests damage.

CHANGESSSSSS- ——————————————————-

PLEASE REMOVE SEAL ACTIVATION Animations. What’s the point of a CC break that has a cast animation and flinches me? Red seal makes you immune to flinches but essentially flinches you through animation.


Hammer needs something more.. The way my pvp 1v1 partners describe it is predictable. We need a technical attack that either stuns or roots. 2 hander hammer is the only class in the game without a stun that doesn’t have a 2 second wind up. Think about how many warrior has. The normal right click tap attack is worthless as it gives no benefit whatsoever and is far more clunky and long animation to use then normal left clicking or Held right click.

With 2 hander hammer I think you have to be careful one or two changes could make it overpowered. It is the hardest hitting weapon in the game and before the legendries nerf i was doing 1550 damage to morthog. But please note This is all black armor that most people don’t use in pvp + the target was penitence and i was using the Blue seal for armor pen on hammers and maxed justice which, as i mentioned before is difficult to get and maintain in pvp unless you are already getting smashed and taking a lot of damage. And not every hit is 1550 (including the chest's radiant damage + all damage rings and + damage food + criting).

Please nerf what our seals give our team mates and then make them stronger. If you could make the red seal also have the effect of the crusader seal and then the crusader seal gives us like 30 justice that would be sick maybe OP im not quite sure. Probably give it no hammer effect or something.

Justice needs a rework for Sword and shield. Or we need some kind of on use ability, I personally think seal use should give us justice. That way we can keep our justice from draining.

Rogues need some kind of buff against pallies. Its the one class that pally does well against but they have the benefit of not engaging / running. Right now as it stands a good Hunter then wizard then Priest then warrior is my order of what i hate vsing. I think the only class that 2 hander pally does particularly well against is Sword and shield pallies. Go ask on the forums what class people feel like counters them and no one will say pally other then rogues.


GLITCHES

There are 2 glitches that are happening with pally one is when you hammer throw it goes on double cool down if you recall it quicky Which sucks because if you are to slow calling it back u might miss out on the second lot of damage.

The second is The 2 hander hammer Q is interrupted. Please look at my thread on the discord general support: https://discord.com/channels/830738139789787147/1466071885182800065

There are vidoes. I have had it interrupted by priest SNS attacks that aren’t even blue btw or paladin melee attacks that weren’t blue (sword and shield). Ive had it interrupted by npc normal attacks (normal green goblins). When i time my Q to punish someone and i dont even get the full use because its interrupted by literally anything as long as its after the first spin. This has lost me many fights.

Thank you for reading.  If you want any questions or clarity on my thoughts please dont hesitate to ask. My grammer isnt the best sorry about that haha.